Monday, 29 December 2014

Dialogue between a bible believer and Mormons.



Is God Spirit or made of flesh and bones?


This question I put forth is in light of sitting in the LDS Church where members were giving talks stating that God the Father is flesh and bones.


Fairmormon Website: It is incorrect to imply that God cannot be in human form, since a fundamental doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus is God, made flesh.

Me: This statement is false and misleading, and is served to only place the reader in a state of mind or have a train of thought into thinking that God CAN be in human form with no scriptural evidence (Bible Only) that God (The Father) is Flesh.

Here is the problem, this statement does not make a distinction between Jesus and the Father. This statement is a play on words or putting it more specifically a word game leaving the reader open to any interpretation.

2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

We must study the Word of God to show ourselves approved unto God, RIGHTLY Dividing the word of truth.

So who are we talking about in the statement?

 Jesus or the Father?

You can take this statement and say that Jesus and the father are the same Person/God, can you not?

Christians rooted in the Holy Bible believe Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, yes. 

Jesus is God.

John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
We all know Jesus is the Word. He was in the beginning, he was with God, and was God. The same was in the beginning with God and all things created by him.

John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. (He is the only begotten of the Father)

So we read here that the Word (Jesus) was made flesh and came to live among us (man).

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Jesus appears to the Apostle Thomas after his resurrection, Thomas call's Jesus his Lord and his God.

1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

This verse speaking of Jesus, whom is God manifest in the flesh.

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am"

Jesus claiming to be God in reference to Exodus 3:14.

There are many more verses that show Jesus is God, but this is not what you were teaching at your chapel service,

Jesus is God in the flesh, but you say God the Father is flesh and bones.




Jesus himself defined what a spirit is – and pointed out that it is different from a human, physical body. After his resurrection, he told his disciples in Luke 24.

Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

From this definition, we see that a spirit is not flesh and bones.

John 4:23-24 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Here we have Jesus Speaking to a Samaritan woman at Jacob's Well, she had finished asking Jesus which location should they be worshiping God.

Jesus makes a clear statement to her and says we will no longer be worshiping the Father in any physical location, which according to the Samaritans was in mount Gerizim or with the Jews in Jerusalem. 

Jesus said the TRUE WORSHIPERS shall worship the FATHER in spirit and truth.

Verse 24 Jesus states God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth.
Jesus cannot be talking about himself as he makes a clear distinction that he is talking about the Father.

And the KJV translators added words in italics to indicate that it is not part of the original text but inserted by them to give more clarity to the text.

So in verse 24 even if you did remove the italics it would read the following:

"God a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and in truth" – how can you yet still misunderstand that?


Fairmormon Website: Mormons believe that God has a physical body and human form. Does scripture which says that "God is not a man" (e.g. Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29, Hosea 11:9) contradict this idea?

These scriptures read (emphasis added):

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man [i.e., a human being], that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" - Numbers 23:19

The first passage, in Numbers, not only says that "God is not a man", but it also says that God is not "the son of man." If a Christian were to claim from this passage that God is not a man, they would have to consistently claim that God is also not a "son of man." This of course contradicts many New Testament statements about Jesus (who is God) to the contrary.

Me: Of course this boils down to who you are talking about, if we know that Jesus is the "I AM" of the Old Testament, and we know he made this statement before he manifest in the flesh does not this verse ring true?

The nature of the godhead had not fully been revealed until the moment Jesus got baptised.

Think about it, if he said this in the Old Testament, and not yet manifest in the form of Jesus in the New Testament, then this verse is true. There is no contradiction.

And if we are talking about Jesus then this verse has nothing to do with the Father, in which Mormonism claims that the Father is flesh and bones.

Fairmormon Website: Therefore, we know that the passage from Numbers is not suggesting that God is fundamentally not a "son of man", but rather that God is not a "son of man" in the sense that God doesn't have need for repentance. The next logical step requires us to conclude that the passage is not suggesting that God is fundamentally "not a man", but that God is not a man in the sense that God does not lie.

Me: Agreed, in context God, speaking through Balaam, explains His nature to the pagan king Balak and says, "God is not a man, that he should lie, neither the son of man, that he should repent: Hath he said, and will he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and will he not make it good?"

But nowhere is this teaching that God the Father is flesh and bones.

Yes God does not lie, nor does he have the need to repent like man.


Jesus has two natures, he is God and Man, he is 100% God, and 100% Man, and this is called Hypostatic Union, the term we use to describe this state. 

He is not half God and half man, He continued to exist as God when he became a man and added human nature to Himself.

Philippians 2:5-11 "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Jesus as God

He is worshiped - Matthew 2:2, 11; 14:33
He is prayed to - Acts 7:59
He is sinless - 1 Peter 2:22; Hebrews 4:15
He knows all things - John 21:17
He gives eternal life - John 10:28
All the fullness of deity dwells in Him - Colossians 2:9

Jesus as Man

He worshiped the Father - John 17
He prayed to the Father - John 17
He grew in wisdom - Luke 2:52
He was tempted - Matthew 4:1
He died - Romans 5:8
He has a body of flesh and bones - Luke 24:39

Fairmormon Website: "And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent." - 1 Samuel 15:29I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. - Hosea 11:9

Me: Again, this does not answer my question, is God the Father Flesh and bones?

Fairmormon website: Though there are many examples, one should suffice. Jesus says, "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Matthew 12:40

Me: What does this have to do with God the Father being a spirit?

Fairmormon Website: These verses say nothing about the nature or form of God—they merely assert that God is not like man in certain ways

Me: why even bring up Jonas and Matthew scriptures, these verses aren't even saying what you are implying either!

Fairmormon Website: It is incorrect to imply that God cannot be in human form—the fundamental doctrine of Christianity is that Jesus is God, made flesh. One would have to assume that these verses also apply to Jesus, when they clearly do not. Jesus may be in human form, but he will not sin, or change his mind from doing his father's will.

Me: it is also incorrect to imply that God the Father can be in human form, the fundamental doctrine of Christianity is Jesus who is God manifest in the flesh is correct – are you doubting the bible?

You have no verse from the Holy Bible to support your claims that God the Father is flesh and bones, but there a plenty of verses to support the Father is Spirit

Mormon Member: Don't you believe that God was once a man?

Yes in the form of Jesus who is God the Son and the Word, but as to the Father who was once a man? 


Fairmormon Website

In John1:1-14
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Well considering that you believe Jesus is God. In what form did Jesus come in? Flesh and Blood.


He came by water and blood, John's first epistle chapter 5 gives us the testimony of Jesus.

1 John 5:6 "This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth."

Note: water is symbolic of the flesh.

Fairmormon Website: Does the doctrine that God has a physical body contradict the Bible's statement that "God is a Spirit"?


Some Christians object to the LDS position that God has a physical body by quoting John 4:24

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (Italics in KJV original).


Adopting a critical reading of this verse leads to some strange conclusions if we are consistent. Deuteronomy 4:28 says that our God can see, eat and smell. Can an unembodied spirit do that? 

Deuteronomy 4:24 and Hebrews 12:29 say that God is a consuming fire, 1 Jn 1:5 says God is light, and 1 Jn 4:4,16 says that God is love. 

Is He just those things? Clearly not, and the LDS conclude that neither is He just a spirit.

Me: this view is completely illogical and shows the calibre of this person who wrote this article, this writer has difficulty in rightly dividing the word, no doubt has difficulty in distinguishing literal and metaphors.

Of Jesus said no man hath seen the Father, a clear distinction between himself and the Father.

John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

John 6:46 "Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father."

Clear scriptures that tell us that no man has seen the Father.

Deuteronomy 4:28 "And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell."

This verse is talking about false idols, where on earth is this talking about the true living God? 

Note that the word "god" is lowercase…

Again this shows how unlearned the writer of the fairmormon website is, failing to rightly divide the Word. This shows their apologetics and how they employ their tactics.

Cannot a Spirit see? Is this writer so content with their writing that they are making foolish statements?

Cannot a Spirit hear? It is foolish for the writer to make a statement who assumes that Spirits cannot hear then how do you explain the numerous recorded events in the bible where men are communicating to spirits?

Did not King Saul Communicate with a familiar spirit (Demonic Spirit) supposing to be Samuel the Prophet? Read 1 Samuel 28:14-20

Hebrews 12:29 - God is a consuming fire, Why can't God be a consuming fire? This is literal, Can God not be anything he wants to be? Or is your human mind to ignorant of the fact that God is God and farimormon's writers are not as intelligent as other humans?

Deuteronomy 4:24 "For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God."
Not only is he a consuming fire, but this verse says he's also a jealous God. 

1 John 1:5 – God is light, fairmormon is getting ridiculous now, of course God is light, even in revelation we are told the sun and moon will no longer shine it's light in the new kingdom to come.

Isaiah 60:19 “The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.”

 Revelation 21:23 “And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.”
 Revelation 22:5 “And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.” 

1 John 4:4,16 – God is love

Is this Author trying to insult our intelligence? Clearly these are only some of the things that describe his attributes, and even pointed out that he is literally all these things, can a body of flesh and bones be all these things? No. So the LDS conclusion is illogical.

Which now leads me to ANTHROPOMORPHISM.

Means the attribution of human characteristics or behaviour to a god, animal, or object.

Let’s take a look at some of them.

By the power of his mighty arm

  • Exodus 15:16 “Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.

 God is also pictured as having a face, hands, fingers and a back.

  • Psalm 27:8 “When thou saidstSeek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek.”
  • Psalm 10:12 “Arise, O Lord; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.”
  • Psalm 88:5 “free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.”
  • Deuteronomy 9:10 “and the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord Spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.”
  • Exodus 33:23 “and I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.”

As well, God is described as talking, walking, laughing, and weeping. 

Such anthropomorphism's are poetic symbols or metaphors representing that which would otherwise be indescribable, because God in his being is invisible and unknown. 

Such symbols of God’s being are condescension’s to us – put in words that we can understand. 

We have to have some way of describing God’s relationship to us. The only way this can occur is through symbols that are understandable to our finite minds and experience.

The nature and size of the universe itself tells us that it would be impossible that a God made in the image of humans could create, maintain and control the universe.  

Yet, precisely the opposite is said of God – that the universe cannot contain him…

  • 2 Chronicles 2:6 “But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him? who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?”

Anthropomorphism, as mentioned earlier, makes God in our image and forgets that we are made in his image. 

Man has been given the ability to reason and to express many divine qualities, such as communication, invention and the creation of new things, but only from existing materials. 

God has also given humanity dominion and stewardship over his creation, which shows humanity's place as ruler and king, much like God. 

This is the meaning of God creating us "in his own image," not that God is like humans in having bodily parts and shape.

Taking Anthropomorphism literally, is a dangerous and pagan doctrine that we should avoid. 

In the book of Romans, explains what happened in human philosophy and religion.

  • Romans 1:21-23 “because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.”

Fairmormon Website: Note that in the KJV cited above, the word "is" is italicized. This is because the King James translators have inserted it on their own—it is not present in the Greek text from which the translation was made.

Me: Already know that. Note now this author is only spewing out what they have been told, they are not Hebrew and Greek scholars. It shows in their failure to correctly interpret Deuteronomy 4:24.

Fairmormon Website: Secondly, the reader should be aware that the indefinite article ("a", as in "a dog" or "a spirit") does not exist in Greek. Thus, the addition of the word "a" in English occurs at the discretion of the translators.[3]

Me: Yeah, So this author is now an expert in ancient Hebrew and Greek? And wants to pit their wits against the 52 translators of the KJV bible whom each individual who were godly men that are fluent in ancient Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Syriac, and Latin among 15 other modern languages?

Fairmormon website: This leaves two Greek words: Theos pneuma [θεος πνεμα]—"God spirit". The JST resolves this translational issue by saying "for unto such hath God promised his spirit". The word pneuma, which is translated spirit, also means 'life' or 'breath'. The King James Version of Revelation 13:15 renders 'pneuma' as life. Thus "God is life," or "God is the breath of life" are potential alternative translations of this verse.

Me: Wrong this author is not an expert in Ancient Greek.

Joseph Smith made his own version of the Bible. It was called The Inspired Version of the Bible or JST. 

The Inspired Version contains numerous alterations to what the text actually says, the rendering: "For unto such hath God promise his Spirit" is not found in any Greek manuscript. 

Produce one manuscript having over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic and Armenian; produce one that supports Joseph Smith's translation.

As with the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible: The New World Translation, Joseph Smith changed the text to force his own theology into the text.

The literal reading of John 4:24 is: "God is spirit" (pneuma ho Theos). The word "spirit" (pneuma) is an anarthrous predicate nominative that comes before the subject (literal translation: "spirit the God"), hence grammatically, "spirit" cannot be translated indefinite: "a spirit" but rather qualitative: "spirit" denoting as to the quality of God - namely as to His nature: He is spirit, thus the text does not read: has a spirit but is spirit. 

Do not confuse possession with identity due to the unacquaintedness (That this Mormon has) of Greek grammar! 

It's laughable that someone today can turn to the Greek or Hebrew who can't even speak the language can come along and undermine an entire translation committee who spoke these languages fluently.

And in regards to Joseph Smith's translation which is not a translation at all but really an interpretation if you could even call it that, and you couldn't even call it a paraphrase, and in doing so just condemned himself by adding and removing from God's Word in his so called inspired translations.

Fairmormon website: Also, if God is a spirit and we have to worship him in spirit, do mortals have to leave our bodies to worship him?

Me: another unintelligent statement by the author, Understand what it means to be Born Again please…this is such a condescending statement that just goes to show the intent of the author by trying to insult Christians, look, Mormons might think that you have to leave your mortal body to worship God but biblical Christians do not.

In Fact this author is implying that we should die in order to worship the Father, after all the bible says to the Corinthians the following:

2 Corinthians 5:8 "we are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

And if you get the context, Paul is talking about dying when he says to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord; of course this only refers to Born Again believers.

Fairmormon website: Thus, the Latter-day Saints believe that man is also spirit (DC 93:33-34; Numbers 16:22; Romans 8:16) and is, like God, housed in a physical body. We were, after all, created in the "image" of God (Genesis 1:26-27).

Me: We all believe man is spirit and housed in a physical body also. However, the difference between biblical Christianity and Mormonism is WHEN that spirit came to be in the body, before or after the physical housing was made, and the fact that the Father is Spirit, not having a body.

The bible teaches that the spirit comes after the physical body, proving also that their belief that men pre-existed as spirit children residing with the heavenly Father is incorrect.

Genesis 2:7 “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

Hmmm, body formed first, then the breath of life (ruach = breath, wind, spirit) then man became a living soul...what do you know???

 Genesis 1:26-27 “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

At this point is it safe to say that both the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are in...Spirit form?

Has Jesus manifest in the flesh yet? No...So Genesis 1:26-27 is referring to their Spirit then isn't it?

So God said let us make man in our image, after our likeness, God did not say let us make an exact copy of us, verse 27 God created man in his own image = likeness, resemblance or similarity. 

Notice man is the one that is created in God's image, the female is in the image of man.

The body is formed before the spirit as bible states.

1 Corinthians 15:44-49 “it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”

 Hmmm no pre-existence there, in fact the pre-existence teaching isn't even new, heretics of Paul's time tried to teach this heresy.

What else can we find:

Zechariah 12:1 “The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.”

According to the bible here, spirit formed in man...

Fairmormon Website: It is interesting that in 1 Corinthians 2:11, Paul wrote about "the spirit of man and the Spirit of God." 

Me: You sir are truly a deceptive false evil tree, true God rejecting baboon, proving that Mormons are very good at taking verses out of context.

The context of this verse starts at verse 6 of this chapter, and is telling us how the Spirit reveals to us the wisdom of God. verse 11 in part is a question, showing how foolish they making doctrine from a question like there baptisms for the dead heresy.

Verse 11 is asking a question, Paul is asking for what man knows the things, as in his thoughts other than his own spirit? In the same way no man knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

Elsewhere he spoke of the resurrection of the body and then noted that it is a "spiritual" body (1 Corinthians 15:44-46), though, rising from the grave, it is obviously composed of flesh and bones, as Jesus made clear when he appeared to the apostles after his resurrection ({s||Luke|24|37-39}}).

Me: Again the Author shows how misleading they are, and how unapproved they are to God in their scriptures. Besides isn't that what most do when they have more than one source of authority?
Let's read from the bible, oh no! we've found a contradiction to our theology, let's turn to our Book of Mormon to override the bible…hmmm still can't find what I'm looking for in the book of Mormon, let's turn to our Doctrines and Covenants, hmmm found it section 130:22! Ah that's what I wanted, always knew that the Holy Bible was mistranslated…

I explained 1 Corinthians 15 already, and there explanation is full of it, it makes one angry to see how full of the anti Christ spirit this writer has. You can tell when one is not saved because they twist and pull and stretch scriptures to fit their own theology it's sad.

This person is a false teacher, an evil tree which bears only evil fruit, they'll probably twist the meaning of fruit as well and say it's good say they're Christian too...

Fairmormon website: Paul also told the saints in Rome, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you" (Romans 8:9).

One Commentary insists:

That God is spirit is not meant as a definition of God's being—though this is how the Stoics [a branch of Greek philosophy] would have understood it. 

It is a metaphor of his mode of operation, as life-giving power, and it is no more to be taken literally than 1 Jn 1:5, "God is light," or Deuteronomy 4:24, "Your God is a devouring fire." It is only those who have received this power through Christ who can offer God a real worship.

Me: Again, this writer has the inability to tell the difference between what is literal and what is a metaphor. Does this writer have to resort to somebody else's commentary? Which is darn right wrong.

This is from a lack of understanding scripture as well especially from somebody with little knowledge about ancient Greek.

I am no expert in the language of ancient Hebrew and Greek, and would dare not attempt to destroy the work of men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

This is like that ridiculous unintelligent nonspiritual comment previously made;

"Also, if God is a spirit and we have to worship him in spirit, do mortals have to leave our bodies to worship him?"

When Jesus says he is the door, does that mean he is an actual door with a handle, hinges and screws? 

When Jesus said he is the bread that came down from heaven, does this mean that Jesus actually turned into a loaf of bread?

When Jesus said, "Eat my flesh and drink my blood" do you think he meant it literally? 


Show me where in the bible (KJV) does it say that God the Father is flesh and bones!

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